Дайри умерли, а я ещё нет.
Продолжение банкета.
Сегодня этот холивар поглотил мою твиттер-ленту. Потом проснулась Америка, и он поглотил мою ленту ещё раз. Наболело от "Сотни" до этого вашего плоттвиста в Steve Rogers #1; праведный гнев и здравый смысл больше не могли сталкиваться, не выливаясь в простыни текста.
многобуквСразу положу две здесь две старые цитаты:
Creating something is not a democracy. The people have no say. The artist does. It doesn’t matter what the people witter on about: they and their response come after. They’re not there for the creation. (с) РТД
There’s endorsing/engaging in Death of the Author, and then there’s beating the author senseless in a filthy alley, dragging them into the street, running them over repeatedly with a mid-sized tank, leaving the mess there on display, then gloating about it on the internet. (с) некий юзер на тумблере
И ещё:
When did "being a fan" become synonymous with "I know this thing better than its creators, who I also want to murder"? [x]
В общем, новый круг холивара начался с того, что Фарачи (с присущим ему снобизмом и лицемерием) выкатил простыню с позиции здравого смысла.
It's all about demanding what you want out of the story, believing that the story should be tailored to your individual needs, not the expression of the creators. These fans are treating stories like ordering at a restaurant - hold the pickles, please, and can I substitute kale for the lettuce? But that isn't how art works, and that shouldn't be how art lovers react to art.
[...]
This underbelly has always been there in fandom, going back to Doyle and beyond. There are new wrinkles for younger fans, a group that seems uninterested in conflict or personal difficulty in their narratives (look at the popularity of fan fics set in coffee shops or bakeries, which posit the characters of a comic or TV show or movie they love as co-workers having sub-sitcom level interactions. I had an argument with a younger fan on Twitter recently and she told me that what she wants out of a Captain America story is to see Steve Rogers be happy and get whatever he wants - ie, the exact opposite of what you want from good drama), but while the details change the general attitude is the same: this is what I want out of these stories, and if you don't give it to me you're anti-Semitic/ripping off the consumer/a dead man.
In a lot of ways fandom has always been a powder keg just waiting for the right moment to explode, and that moment is the ubiquity of social media.
Конечно, никому не понравилось, когда их сгребли в одну кучу с поехавшими, устроившими бугурт из-за новых "Охотников за привидениями".
Последовали ответы разной степени истеричности (и так далее - бесконечное количество длинных тредов в твиттере, которые я залайкала, видимо, из фандомного мазохизма).
There’s an undeniable strain of fan entitlement growing in the increasingly irrevocably toxic circles of fandom. Every woman I know has faced the wrath of at least one creep who thinks a vaguely feminist discussion of the latest Star Wars film or Uncharted game is abhorrent to their very being. I could talk for days about the tin-hat shippers in Twilight, 1 Direction, 50 Shades of Grey and Outlander fandoms, who see spinning conspiracies about actors having secret relationships as their god given right (which also feels like a more accurate comparison to make with female Ghostbusters if Faraci insisted on an equal opportunity comparison). However, to ignore the ways in which these attitudes are orchestrated and exacerbated by both the focuses of their adoration and the media at large does a major disservice to all involved, and paints an inaccurately one sided view of how such entitlement is created.
Faraci, while noting the Frozen Twitter campaign, said art shouldn’t be about giving into fan demands, and fans should not treat their fandoms like ordering food at a restaurant, demanding elements that fit their individual needs. That’s only half true. Of course creators are free to do as they want, but they’ve always on some level either pandered to fans or stoked the fires of their desires by baiting them with false developments. I’ve been in fandoms that have had creators who gloried in the shipping elements of their show and engaged in queerbaiting in order to build excitement for a new episode.
[...]
That weaponised nostalgia, coupled with stroking the ego of the supposed exclusivity of fan circles, is a powerful and massively profitable force, and capitalism is the name of the game. Fans tweeting about giving Steve Rogers a boyfriend or Elsa a girlfriend are expressing a consumer desire, one that reflects changing social attitudes and as such that should be celebrated. I can’t even imagine us having this discussion four years ago and now it feels normal. That’s an incredible step forward. Asking for such a thing – be it more inclusive casting, a step away from heteronormative relationships in fiction, etc – isn’t so much an entitled demand as it is a signal that we’re ready for change. I don’t think Elsa will get a girlfriend, although I’d love that because I think those young generations of queer kids deserve to see in the stories they love, but the message is out there that change is wanted, it’s needed and it’s coming.
We turn to pop culture for reflections of ourselves and a better world because they want us to, but also because it’s their job.
Fans can be loud and obnoxious on social media, making it easy for people to lump valid criticism into the same category as stupid overreactions ("The new Batmobile looks so bad I'm never reading a DC comic again") and outright harassment. For writers and creators, this can start to feel like one huge mass of negative commentary—which is probably why Faraci's article resonated with so many people.
In a lot of ways, he's right. He just doesn't seem to recognize the difference between outright harassment and vocal but constructive campaigns to improve fandom for everyone.
[...]
Fan entitlement, or something like it, can be hurtful—especially for creators who work on beloved franchises like Doctor Who or Star Wars, where fans feel a strong sense of ownership of long-running characters. But fan entitlement is an attitude problem, brought on by a lack of thoughtfulness and empathy. It's not an umbrella term for every fandom reaction, from death threats to hashtag activism.
В Америке наступило утро, и Фарачи ответил на критику немного более взвешенно:
I believe that people should let the decision-makers know that they want more stories featuring underrepresented groups. I believe that the only way to get more representation is to let the suits and the bean counters know that there's an audience for this stuff, to loudly proclaim your willingness to buy tickets or comic books (and then follow up on it by actually buying tickets and comic books). Everyone should let the companies behind the stories we love know that they would like to be included in them.
But the line is crossed when you go from "Disney, I would really like to have a queer princess in one of your cartoons" to "I demand that the writers and directors of Frozen 2 make Elsa canonically queer." You can - and should! - let the higher ups know the kinds of stories you want told. You should not demand that storytellers tell their stories in the ways that you want.
Хорошо, наверное, искренне делить всех на угнетённых и угнетателей, где угрозы шлёт только привилегированная часть фандома. Уютно. Но лол. Корнелл пишет, что нехорошие люди маскируют личные предпочтения за политическими формулировками, а настоящие борцы за прогресс не такие, но лол. Да, можно оказаться по одну сторону прогресса с людьми, чьи методы кажутся неприемлемыми. Аргумент "нам можно, потому что мы правы" не катит. "Мы не истерим, мы просто passionate" тоже.
Если у кого-то прямо жизненная БОЛЬ от сериала (я не сохраняю ссылки на посты из серии "я так идентифицировалась с этой героиней, что спать и есть не могла, когда с ней случилось что-то плохое, потому что это всё равно что со мной", потому что они совсем жуткие), то таким людям стоит отключить тв/нетфликс/торренты и для начала разобраться со своими (серьёзными или не совсем) проблемами.
Однако попкультура несёт определённую ответственность перед аудиторией. И неуместно называть составляющие огромных франшиз Искусством с большой буквы, где всё определяется творческой волей криэйтора.
Где, в конце концов, проходит граница между здоровым фидбеком, откликом аудитории, который следует принимать во внимание, и пресловутым entitlement с петициями и ультимативными хэштегами?
Возможно, третий сезон "Шерлока" всё же обогнал своё время.
На BMD в комментариях кто-то сформулировал:
Knowing the difference between good storytelling and wish fulfillment goes a long way.
Сегодня этот холивар поглотил мою твиттер-ленту. Потом проснулась Америка, и он поглотил мою ленту ещё раз. Наболело от "Сотни" до этого вашего плоттвиста в Steve Rogers #1; праведный гнев и здравый смысл больше не могли сталкиваться, не выливаясь в простыни текста.
многобуквСразу положу две здесь две старые цитаты:
Creating something is not a democracy. The people have no say. The artist does. It doesn’t matter what the people witter on about: they and their response come after. They’re not there for the creation. (с) РТД
There’s endorsing/engaging in Death of the Author, and then there’s beating the author senseless in a filthy alley, dragging them into the street, running them over repeatedly with a mid-sized tank, leaving the mess there on display, then gloating about it on the internet. (с) некий юзер на тумблере
И ещё:
When did "being a fan" become synonymous with "I know this thing better than its creators, who I also want to murder"? [x]
В общем, новый круг холивара начался с того, что Фарачи (с присущим ему снобизмом и лицемерием) выкатил простыню с позиции здравого смысла.
It's all about demanding what you want out of the story, believing that the story should be tailored to your individual needs, not the expression of the creators. These fans are treating stories like ordering at a restaurant - hold the pickles, please, and can I substitute kale for the lettuce? But that isn't how art works, and that shouldn't be how art lovers react to art.
[...]
This underbelly has always been there in fandom, going back to Doyle and beyond. There are new wrinkles for younger fans, a group that seems uninterested in conflict or personal difficulty in their narratives (look at the popularity of fan fics set in coffee shops or bakeries, which posit the characters of a comic or TV show or movie they love as co-workers having sub-sitcom level interactions. I had an argument with a younger fan on Twitter recently and she told me that what she wants out of a Captain America story is to see Steve Rogers be happy and get whatever he wants - ie, the exact opposite of what you want from good drama), but while the details change the general attitude is the same: this is what I want out of these stories, and if you don't give it to me you're anti-Semitic/ripping off the consumer/a dead man.
In a lot of ways fandom has always been a powder keg just waiting for the right moment to explode, and that moment is the ubiquity of social media.
Конечно, никому не понравилось, когда их сгребли в одну кучу с поехавшими, устроившими бугурт из-за новых "Охотников за привидениями".
Последовали ответы разной степени истеричности (и так далее - бесконечное количество длинных тредов в твиттере, которые я залайкала, видимо, из фандомного мазохизма).
There’s an undeniable strain of fan entitlement growing in the increasingly irrevocably toxic circles of fandom. Every woman I know has faced the wrath of at least one creep who thinks a vaguely feminist discussion of the latest Star Wars film or Uncharted game is abhorrent to their very being. I could talk for days about the tin-hat shippers in Twilight, 1 Direction, 50 Shades of Grey and Outlander fandoms, who see spinning conspiracies about actors having secret relationships as their god given right (which also feels like a more accurate comparison to make with female Ghostbusters if Faraci insisted on an equal opportunity comparison). However, to ignore the ways in which these attitudes are orchestrated and exacerbated by both the focuses of their adoration and the media at large does a major disservice to all involved, and paints an inaccurately one sided view of how such entitlement is created.
Faraci, while noting the Frozen Twitter campaign, said art shouldn’t be about giving into fan demands, and fans should not treat their fandoms like ordering food at a restaurant, demanding elements that fit their individual needs. That’s only half true. Of course creators are free to do as they want, but they’ve always on some level either pandered to fans or stoked the fires of their desires by baiting them with false developments. I’ve been in fandoms that have had creators who gloried in the shipping elements of their show and engaged in queerbaiting in order to build excitement for a new episode.
[...]
That weaponised nostalgia, coupled with stroking the ego of the supposed exclusivity of fan circles, is a powerful and massively profitable force, and capitalism is the name of the game. Fans tweeting about giving Steve Rogers a boyfriend or Elsa a girlfriend are expressing a consumer desire, one that reflects changing social attitudes and as such that should be celebrated. I can’t even imagine us having this discussion four years ago and now it feels normal. That’s an incredible step forward. Asking for such a thing – be it more inclusive casting, a step away from heteronormative relationships in fiction, etc – isn’t so much an entitled demand as it is a signal that we’re ready for change. I don’t think Elsa will get a girlfriend, although I’d love that because I think those young generations of queer kids deserve to see in the stories they love, but the message is out there that change is wanted, it’s needed and it’s coming.
We turn to pop culture for reflections of ourselves and a better world because they want us to, but also because it’s their job.
Fans can be loud and obnoxious on social media, making it easy for people to lump valid criticism into the same category as stupid overreactions ("The new Batmobile looks so bad I'm never reading a DC comic again") and outright harassment. For writers and creators, this can start to feel like one huge mass of negative commentary—which is probably why Faraci's article resonated with so many people.
In a lot of ways, he's right. He just doesn't seem to recognize the difference between outright harassment and vocal but constructive campaigns to improve fandom for everyone.
[...]
Fan entitlement, or something like it, can be hurtful—especially for creators who work on beloved franchises like Doctor Who or Star Wars, where fans feel a strong sense of ownership of long-running characters. But fan entitlement is an attitude problem, brought on by a lack of thoughtfulness and empathy. It's not an umbrella term for every fandom reaction, from death threats to hashtag activism.
В Америке наступило утро, и Фарачи ответил на критику немного более взвешенно:
I believe that people should let the decision-makers know that they want more stories featuring underrepresented groups. I believe that the only way to get more representation is to let the suits and the bean counters know that there's an audience for this stuff, to loudly proclaim your willingness to buy tickets or comic books (and then follow up on it by actually buying tickets and comic books). Everyone should let the companies behind the stories we love know that they would like to be included in them.
But the line is crossed when you go from "Disney, I would really like to have a queer princess in one of your cartoons" to "I demand that the writers and directors of Frozen 2 make Elsa canonically queer." You can - and should! - let the higher ups know the kinds of stories you want told. You should not demand that storytellers tell their stories in the ways that you want.
Хорошо, наверное, искренне делить всех на угнетённых и угнетателей, где угрозы шлёт только привилегированная часть фандома. Уютно. Но лол. Корнелл пишет, что нехорошие люди маскируют личные предпочтения за политическими формулировками, а настоящие борцы за прогресс не такие, но лол. Да, можно оказаться по одну сторону прогресса с людьми, чьи методы кажутся неприемлемыми. Аргумент "нам можно, потому что мы правы" не катит. "Мы не истерим, мы просто passionate" тоже.
Если у кого-то прямо жизненная БОЛЬ от сериала (я не сохраняю ссылки на посты из серии "я так идентифицировалась с этой героиней, что спать и есть не могла, когда с ней случилось что-то плохое, потому что это всё равно что со мной", потому что они совсем жуткие), то таким людям стоит отключить тв/нетфликс/торренты и для начала разобраться со своими (серьёзными или не совсем) проблемами.
Однако попкультура несёт определённую ответственность перед аудиторией. И неуместно называть составляющие огромных франшиз Искусством с большой буквы, где всё определяется творческой волей криэйтора.
Где, в конце концов, проходит граница между здоровым фидбеком, откликом аудитории, который следует принимать во внимание, и пресловутым entitlement с петициями и ультимативными хэштегами?
Возможно, третий сезон "Шерлока" всё же обогнал своё время.
На BMD в комментариях кто-то сформулировал:
Knowing the difference between good storytelling and wish fulfillment goes a long way.
@темы: Фандомное
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01.06.2016 в 02:51Yesterday I was called an anti-Semite, a Nazi supporter, blamed for Johnny Depp beating his wife (really), and wished chopped-meatness upon my cat Emily. All of this because I said that blaming a ruined childhood on a plot twist in a comic book was unreasonable.
It's important to note that I never even argued FOR the plot twist. I can see someone being upset or angered by the twist. I can see not liking it and posting negative thoughts about it on the Internet. But balance is an important part of life, and blaming it for ruining our lives, or wishing harm to someone because of it, is not rational. If people said all of those things to me after an idle FB post, can you imagine what they're saying to the WRITER?
Sometimes the pop culture figures we love are going to do different things than what we want them to do. Sometimes it will be because of bad storytelling and sometimes it will be because the creators simply have different ideas than we do. We can complain about it, but being hyperbolic about it isn't healthy and attacking folks for it isn't kind. And if you're doing those things, I suggest you have bigger issues in your life that need examining.
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01.06.2016 в 09:05А я сама когда-то обижалась на претензии в духе "Что-то сильно не понравилось - смени фандом и забудь об этом каноне, а не срись или грызи кактус, этим ты ничего не изменишь". Но, похоже, это реально самый здравый и безболезненный путь, если уж совсем неприемлемое для тебя сотворили авторы канона.
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01.06.2016 в 09:43Эт с какими именно? *grin*
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01.06.2016 в 23:08Otter dArc, с теми, кто выбрасывает погремушки из манежа в связи с новым фильмом?
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01.06.2016 в 23:31-
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02.06.2016 в 02:11-
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02.06.2016 в 22:35Этот виток начался с того, что в первом выпуске новой серии комиксов про Капитана Америку у него случился флэшбек, в детство, как бы обозначающий, что он якобы с самого начала был двойным агентом и работал на Гидру. "Хайль Гидра", - говорит Капитан Америка, клиффхэнгер, конец первого выпуска. (Я не слежу за комиксами, так что пересказываю в меру своего понимания.)
Авторов комикса немедленно объявили антисемитами. Потому что.
...
Ну и добавили к этому традиционные обвинения в неуважении к читателям, lazy writing, дешёвых манипуляциях, причинении душевной боли детям и взрослым и так далее; список не меняется от раза к разу и уже звучит как заклинание. Разумеется, дошло до травли в твиттере и угроз.
Вокруг этой истории развернулся холивар, куда обе стороны конфликта постепенно подтянули ещё несколько схожих с этим случаев фанатского outrage в этом сезоне. Но, как мне кажется, самым острым в этом витке стало то, что кто-то придумал привести к общему знаменателю истерики левых и правых, "прогрессивных" и "шовинистов".
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02.06.2016 в 23:18-
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02.06.2016 в 23:22